How do you top a new theme park and a billion dollar animated movie? Nintendo will try to answer that question with Super Mario Wonder, its new game that can appropriately be called the Year of Mario.
We recently got a chance to go hands-on with Super Mario Wonder, and as part of that opportunity we were able to talk to two remarkable Nintendo developers: director Shiro Mouri and producer Takashi Tezuka. Tezuka needs no introduction for Nintendo fans. A Nintendo stalwart since the 1980s, Tezuka is an instrumental part of Mario history. Mouri, meanwhile, has worked on everything from Super Mario Sunshine to New Super Mario Bros. U.
Together the pair are trying to put forward anew vision for Mario; one that's wilder and more imaginative than ever. Read on for our complete interview!
Mouri-san, you have a lot of experience working on 2D Zelda games in addition to 2D Mario games. Has that Zelda experience influenced Super Mario Bros. Wonder at all? Can lessons from one apply to the other, or are Mario and Zelda so different that you must think of them completely independently?
Shiro Mouri, Director: It’s not completely different and there are connections between those two. When we were developing this new 2D Mario we really wanted the idea of the player being able to freely choose to be a strong concept that we really wanted to include. And so what we did this time was include features like being able to choose a character or choose the abilities of a character through the Badge system or being able to freely choose the course you want to take on. And I feel like I’ve really been able to leverage my experience working on 2D Zelda games in that capacity.
Tezuka-san, your career has been amazing, going back to the original Mario and Zelda games. How do you think about nostalgia and its effect on some players today with Super Mario Bros. Wonder, when you yourself helped create that nostalgia? Is it a good thing or is it a problem as you create the game?
Takashi Tezuka, Producer: I think it’s a little bit of both. This is something I think is a good thing. I think the fundamental gameplay of Mario hasn’t changed and that would be a good nostalgia. That’s really that active searching out of things to do. You are the one in charge of how you play the game. And even if you fail, you are able to do it over and over again and through that repetition become a better player. By becoming a better player there’s that feeling of satisfaction you get.
Over the course of creating new games in the Mario series, we’re always looking at creating more volume, more splendid, more extravagant ways to play, so we’re always thinking about those things as we’re creating games. And traditionally you would clear one level and move to the next, what occurs from that is you might lose some interest in the levels you’ve already cleared, and so when we’re looking at creating more volume, that style of gameplay where you clear something and forget about what you’ve done has become an unfortunate side effect of that scope-building process. And I really didn’t think there was any way of getting around that style of development, that style of gameplay.
Now with Wonder, since we’re taking all of this time and effort to create this very big, splendid game, I thought it would be a waste of our effort and time if people did not have the ability to replay some of those levels. And so my mindset changed and I wanted people to replay levels and find something interesting with each of those replays. And I really think that ties back into that original style of gameplay where you would challenge the same course over and find new ways to proceed, so this is a connective tissue between those two ideas.
Mouri-san, this is the second 2D Mario game you have directed after many years of serving as a programmer on them. How has your programming experience influenced your approach as the game director? And what have you learned about the other disciplines of game development in your role as director?
SM: I certainly think that my experience as a programmer has really come in handy. For example, when you’re talking about playing a game online, it’s really, what’s technically difficult or possible is kind of set already. So within those kind of boundaries, leveraging my experience as a programmer, I’ve been able to figure out a way to implement this in such a way that it’s technically possible but also really enjoyable and fun. And what I’m about to share is not the ultimate answer to how to direct a game, but my personal philosophy in that whenever I make a decision I really like to analyze things.
And after that analyzing, if I find that there are more advantages than disadvantages, then it’s something that I implement. And that’s something that I really feel like my experience as a programmer has really helped me through. And in terms of this newfound perspective as a director, I think it boils down to not so much what I can do or what I want to do and what I can do to make the work of others a lot easier and a lot more effective and efficient.
Tezuka-san, given that you are responsible for producing the game – you must make sure everyone is on the same page – is it fair to say that you command instant respect from everyone on the team given your incredible record of designing and producing Mario and Zelda games?
TT: [laughs] Well I don’t know if that’s true or not…
SM: It’s definitely true.
TT: But there are a lot of people who want to talk to me. Within our development area we have some small tables with snacks on them, and those are really just traps to entice me to come into that area [laughs]. So when I’m lured in to take a snack, that’s when they pounce and start talking to me. And they don’t need to do that because I really want to speak with and interact with as many of the younger staff members as I possibly can. And I’m always telling them very frankly, ‘If you have something you want to ask me or something you want to talk about, just come on up.’”
Do you see mentorship as part of your job?
SM: Definitely. I think so.
TT: I’m very very interested to see how the younger generation of players interact with Mario. How do they play Mario? How does that differ from the way I traditionally played Mario? How do they think of him as a character? I’m really curious to see what that difference is between myself and the younger staff members. And that’s because I know that they will become the curators or shepherds Mario going forward.
Did Super Mario Maker shape the way the younger staff thinks about Mario?
TT: I really hope that Mario Maker is impacting the really young players – not so much the staff, but the really young children. I would love it if some of those young children would be interested through Mario Maker in the game industry and creating games and if they eventually came to work at Nintendo that would be wonderful. [laughs] It’s not Mario Maker, but we do have a staff member who played Mario Paint as a child and became interested in the creation of video games and now works at Nintendo.
What feedback has Miyamoto-san given you on Wonder, and what have you learned from him about making Mario games (and in your career in general)?
TT: With Wonder in particular, it wasn’t like Mr. Miyamoto was in our hip pocket during this whole time whispering in our ears or anything like that. Sometimes he would come by where we are working and look at things and give some opinions. He would generally observe things and make comments here and there, and even things that didn’t seem like they were big comments, I have worked with Mr. Miyamoto for a long time and really understand him, so I was able to get what he was implying or getting to and we would have conversations around those sorts of topics.